It all started here, when Ben Riley of NSVF suggested that comments from Finnish Ed Guru Pasi Sahlberg (hero of the anti-reformers) regarding teacher preparation in Finland (and elsewhere) meant that the U.S. really needed to start shutting down teacher preparation programs.
- Benjamin Riley @benjaminjriley 1hDon’t look now, but I think Finnish edu-guru @pasi_sahlberg is quietly hinting we close most US colleges of ed. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/05/15/what-if-finlands-great-teachers-taught-in-u-s-schools-not-what-you-think/ …
Ben Riley’s main takeaway from Sahlberg’s post was that the U.S. should have about the same number of ed schools as Finland…. ? (or at least he lacked clarity on the point… So Sherman Dorn set him straight on the basic math):
- Benjamin Riley @benjaminjriley 56m@shermandorn Right. They have eight such programs in Finland (and train <600 teachers a year). Finland closed most of its ed schools.
- Sherman Dorn @shermandorn 54m@benjaminjriley scaled by population, that would be about 500 programs in U.S.
- Benjamin Riley @benjaminjriley 52m@shermandorn Exactly! Which means we’d close the other 1,000. I feel like someone’s said this before…http://teacherrevised.org/2009/03/31/graduate-schools-of-education-cash-cows-says-harvard-lecturer/ …
A point on which Riley capitulated. So, now we’ve got that straight. The U.S. could indeed reduce the number of teacher preparation programs. But Finland’s total number of 8 really doesn’t match the U.S. Population. Rather, we might use about 500 relatively highly regulated programs, largely housed in research universities and/or professional teaching colleges.
A bit of a sidebar here… Sherman Dorn is also pointing out that the Sahlberg article actually speaks of a system which maintains a strong role for the country’s research universities.
- Sherman Dorn @shermandorn 57m.@benjaminjriley yes and no: “All teachers must earn a master’s degree at one of the country’s research universities.”
That is, not increased reliance on for-profit institutions, or quasi-academic non-research based startups like Relay GSE (which emphasize sit-down-and-shut-up classroom management) which rely almost exclusively on relatively inexperienced current teachers who themselves hold only a master’s degree (many from non-competitive programs – Relay Faculty/Relay NCATE App 9-2012) to deliver their certification programs.
Then the conversation enters new territory. So, what’s been going in in teacher preparation in the U.S. Where have many of the emerging graduate degrees and credentials been coming from in education?
- Sherman Dorn @shermandorn @benjaminjriley As @schlfinance101 notes, greatest expansion recently has been in for-profits
To which Ben Riley issues the incoherent response:
- Benjamin Riley @benjaminjriley 47m @shermandorn @SchlFinance101 Yes. They are also part of the crappy US ed-prep ecosystem.
So, rather confidently as purveyors of decisive reformy thought tend to do, Ben Riley submits that he knows for sure that the system as a whole and invariably is still crappy… and uses the term “ecosystem” to sound informed/thoughtful.
But this is actually really funny, because the whole point of analogizing such systems to natural ecosystems is to understand their diversity and interconnectedness. Yet all that follows here conveys that Ben Riley has limited or no understanding of that nor does he believe that it is important.
So, I figure I’ll jump in (after standing by for a while) and post a link to my slides on changes in the pattern of production of education credentials over the past 20 years:
- Bruce Baker @SchlFinance101 34m@benjaminjriley @shermandorn Complete slide set on degree production in ed here: https://schoolfinance101.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/degree-production-in-education.pdf …
And why not throw in some citations to published research while I’m at it.
- Bruce Baker @SchlFinance101 31m@benjaminjriley @shermandorn related articles here http://eaq.sagepub.com/content/43/3/279.short … & http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/498997 … & http://eaq.sagepub.com/content/43/2/189.short …
- Bruce Baker @SchlFinance101 30m@benjaminjriley @shermandorn Note that this is not a static ecosystem. Must consider the trends/shifts & variance when labeling “crappy”
Skipping ahead here… because we somehow went on another tangent about Finland…I ask Ben Riley if he believes this system that he knows for sure is crappy… is crappier than it was 20 years ago?
I dare suggest that history matters. Context matters… and to know where we are headed, we might want to look first at where we’ve been. After all crappiness requires context- either in terms of time, or in terms of some relevant peer group – or both. To know crappy, one must have some idea of what’s not crappy.
- Bruce Baker @SchlFinance101 19m@benjaminjriley And do you perceive it to be crappier now than 20+ years ago? And on what basis?
- Bruce Baker @SchlFinance101 19m@benjaminjriley Because we know what some of the major trends have been over the past 20 years (as per the previous slides)
And here’s where the conversation just gets stupid and offensive, and so absurdly anti-intellectual that it is perhaps revealing of deeper problems with education in America.
- Benjamin Riley @benjaminjriley 18m@SchlFinance101 I don’t know what educator prep ecosystem was like 20 years ago. I care about what it’s like right now.
Amazingly, Riley’s response is that it’s just crappy. Damn… that’s just brilliant! I push to clarify… Doesn’t history matter? Shouldn’t we understand where we’ve been to figure out where we’re headed? The trends are rather striking. Yes, we’ve criticized teacher preparation in the U.S. for decades… but it certainly seems to be coming to a head of late. But what’s changed so dramatically? This post tells an interesting story!
So, asking again about whether history matters… (and yeah… putting it bluntly & chastising Ben Riley… who I feel at this point deserves a jab or two…)
- Bruce Baker @SchlFinance101 9m@benjaminjriley That is a massively ignorant comment. Knowing where it’s been – how it’s evolved – provides critical insights to where it is
[Note – My original post erred in attributing a Ben Riley response to this statement as denying this statement – a “nope, it does not.” However, the message here still stands. Ben Riley, throughout this conversation displayed complete disregard for the history or context of “ed schools,” or their “ecosystem” responding instead with grossly misinformed, fact-challenged generalizations.]
Apparently, this was not worthy of a response? Does history and context matter? or can we just call the current system crappy without any regard for either?
Perhaps this complete and utter disregard for intellectual inquiry into how/why or even if there are problems, disregard for history and misunderstanding of complexity and “ecosystems” is indicative of the failures of Yale Law School? After all, Yale Law has recently give us this (John King) and this (Neerav Kingsland [who I like and respect, but…]) (and much more to be discussed later). Is there some funky mind-numbing (anti-critical-thinking) Koolaid being passed around in New Haven?
And perhaps it is indicative of the core problem of the modern education reform movement- be it the emphasis on misuse of measures in teacher evaluation (or rating ed schools) – the desire to rapidly expand and deregulate charter schooling – or the crusade against ed schools as if they are some stagnant monolithic entity. Our willful ignorance of context and complete disregard for history is leading down a questionable path – well, actually several at once.
We concluded the conversation after one last side trip to Finland. I pointed out that there are various systemic complexities that make it difficult to assume that focusing solely or even primarily on teacher preparation institutions (w/o consideration for earnings competitiveness, etc.) is wrongheaded.
- Bruce Baker @SchlFinance101 11m@benjaminjriley But thinking that this can be done primarily at prep institution level is likely wrongheaded. Could do some housecleaning.
- Benjamin Riley @benjaminjriley 9m@SchlFinance101 Well, we disagree on that. The high performing nations, almost without exception, all focused on educator prep.
And I’m met with the classic “all of the good countries out there” that obviously beat us into the ground on international assessments do it differently… from us… and of course… the same as each other… you know… like they all have only 8 prep institutions regardless of total population, and only take the top 2% of HS graduates into teaching… and that top 2% goes into teaching regardless of expected earnings. And the programs all get accredited and rated and/or shut down based on whether they contribute positively to the country’s PISA ranking. And while their institutions are called universities… and have instructors called professors… who appear to be engaged in research… really, they’re more like entrepreneurial start-ups that are totally different from university based Ed Schools in the U.S.? Yeah… okay… whatever. What a load of crap!
My final response:
- Bruce Baker @SchlFinance101 8m@benjaminjriley That is a huge leap – over-generalization of “what other nations do” w/marginally relevant application to U.S.
I’m sick of data-free, research void conversations with those who claim so belligerently to know all of the problems and have all of the answers. In other words, I know a crappy argument when I see one, and this was surely a crappy argument!
Baker, B.D, Orr, M.T., Young, M.D. (2007) Academic Drift, Institutional Production and Professional Distribution of Graduate Degrees in Educational Administration. Educational Administration Quarterly 43 (3) 279-318
Baker, B.D., Fuller, E. The Declining Academic Quality of School Principals and Why it May Matter. Baker.Fuller.PrincipalQuality.Mo.Wi_Jan7
Baker, B.D., Wolf-Wendel, L.E., Twombly, S.B. (2007) Exploring the Faculty Pipeline in Educational Administration: Evidence from the Survey of Earned Doctorates 1990 to 2000. Educational Administration Quarterly 43 (2) 189-220
Wolf-Wendel, L, Baker, B.D., Twombly, S., Tollefson, N., & Mahlios, M. (2006) Who’s Teaching the Teachers? Evidence from the National Survey of Postsecondary Faculty and Survey of Earned Doctorates. American Journal of Education 112 (2) 273-300